Chris Grouchy:

Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Legends of Retail podcast, brought to you by Convictional. We talk to leaders in retail and in e-commerce so you can learn from them about retail strategy, leadership, and team management, and you can take back their insights to your company. I'm your host, Chris Grouchy, co-founder and president of Convictional, the supplier enablement platform that helps you onboard dropship vendors in minutes, so you can curate your product assortments much faster.

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In this episode, I spoke to someone who I truly have a ton of respect for and admire within the retail industry, Andrea Limbardi, chief customer and digital officer at Indigo, Canada's largest book and gift retailer. I've had the opportunity to work with Andrea for the past year, and in this episode, she shares some incredible insights from over 25 years in the retail world. Our conversation with Indigo was very timely. Indigo recently reported a massive financial turnaround returning to profitability for the first time since 2019.

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Something I see regularly reported in retail headlines is the impact of platforms like TikTok on viral sales of certain product categories. It's hard to know when the next product category is going to take off, so being well positioned can certainly be advantageous. So whether it's in fashion or furniture, social media has an outsize impact on what people are buying. Andrea recognizes this, and one of the things that really stood out to me is how Indigo leverages real-time social media trends to inform their merchandising decisions and their assortment strategy.

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Some other things that stood out in our conversation is that even though she's the chief customer and digital officer of Indigo, Andrea doesn't see online and offline retail as two different channels that retailers have to navigate. She thinks that that's an antiquated perspective, and digs into why. On the leadership front, Andrea shares her tips for talent interviews, and how she gives her team autonomy. If you want to understand how a book and gift retailer keeps itself at the forefront of the retail industry in 2022, when customers have plenty of options to choose from, then you have to listen to this conversation. It truly is a must.

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All right, without further ado, here's my conversation with Andrea Limbardi, chief customer and digital officer at Indigo. Andrea, thank you for taking the time to chat with us today. It's an honor.

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Andrea Limbardi:

Thank you, Chris. I'm excited to be here.

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Chris Grouchy:

Awesome. Well, I've noticed just on your online profile that you've been volunteering for the Indigo Love of Reading Foundation for what looks like almost 16 years. I'm curious if there's a story that stands out from your time in volunteering that you'd like to share.

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Andrea Limbardi:

The Indigo Love of Reading is something that's very close to my heart. I think if you talk to most people from Indigo, you'd hear from them. It's also very close to their hearts. The purpose of the Indigo Love of Reading Foundation is to supply books to elementary schools who are in high need. Back many years ago, probably close to the inception of the Love of Reading Foundation, which is 16 years ago, I had the opportunity to visit a school in LaSalle just outside of Montreal. I'm going to get teary eye talking about it.

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We went into the school, and we were there to present a new library to them, so filled with books. Prior to that, the children had really no books at all. We're in a major city in Montreal, the second largest city in Montreal, very affluent city overall, and here we are in a school in the city of Montreal, in the island of Montreal with no books. So, it was just a moment for me to realize how different it is in all of Canada and this place that we live, how there are inequities across the board. So on our part to give a little moment of joy, a little moment of make believe, a little moment of imagination when life is so hard for these young kids, you can just see them just light up so much.

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Then they get so excited to talk about the books they're reading, the characters they love. It's a little escape from what are, I think, hard times otherwise for them much of the time.

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Chris Grouchy:

That is an incredibly impactful story. I feel like having those types of experiences where you are directly connected to the people who are most positively impacted by volunteer efforts actually helps people volunteer year after year, because they see the impact they're making through the lens and through the eyes of the people that it's most impacting.

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Andrea Limbardi:

You're so right. We have this beautiful story of one of the children who was a member of one of the schools we supported 16 years ago who then, in turn, worked for us in one of our stores, developed a lifelong love of reading himself, and is now in medical school. So, just an incredible story to see it also happen full circle, and that power of literature and what it can bring to someone.

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Chris Grouchy:

That is an amazing story. While you couldn't convince them to work in retail forever, it sounds like they are doing okay for themselves. Thanks in large part to the early efforts.

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Andrea Limbardi:

That's right. He's doing great. I have joked with him, one day, he's going to be running the world. What an incredibly smart young man.

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Chris Grouchy:

That's amazing. On a personal level, I'm curious where your own love of reading comes from, because Indigo is just such a special place. I have my own childhood experiences of visiting Indigo stores, and being dropped off there actually by my parents, and getting cozy with a book and spending an entire afternoon there. The brand, the retailer definitely holds a special place in my heart in addition to just the warm act of reading. Where does your love of reading come from?

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Andrea Limbardi:

I've been lucky to, as a child, be surrounded by books from a very young age. I still have a copy of the first book I learned to read with, which is called Silly Billy. I remember as a tween, I guess we'd say around 11, 12 years old, going to the library and picking up my first John Irving book, A Prayer for Owen Meany. I should not have been reading that at that age, but I remember so clearly reading that book and realizing, "Wow, there is this whole other world out here," and just so many different ways of thinking of things.

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I joined Indigo back in 2002. I had rediscovered my love of reading in my 20s, and then wanted to get back into it, and just do it, be a part of a company that was doing it all of the time. Stepping away from reading, and then getting back into it really helped me realize how important it was to me, and how important it was for me to have a lifelong journey of learning, which books give you.

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Chris Grouchy:

Absolutely. Escapism as well, which you mentioned. I think there's a great piece of advice that has reinvigorated my love of reading in recent years, which is as soon as a book feels like it's a chore to continue reading, put it down, and pick something else up. I know that is controversial advice. Some people feel like they have to finish books, because that's how school teaches us to learn to read. But for me, it's been very empowering to know that if I hit a point in which this book just isn't going to do it for me, that's okay. There's no pressure here. Let's just go buy another one, or go to the library, and go and try something else.

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Andrea Limbardi:

Well, if it's controversial, I'm right there with you. I have 100-page rule. If by page 100, I'm not into it, I'm going to the next one. There's too many great books out there. It doesn't mean it's not great for someone else, but I am not spending more time than 100 pages. A good rule on that one is Girl With A Dragon Tattoo. I don't know if you've read that series, but really, really big many years ago, and since had multiple movies on it, but the first 100 pages are pretty brutal.

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That's the one where at 90, I was like, "Ooh, I'm giving up, but I'm glad I stuck through 100." It's an amazing series, and I recommend it, dark thriller.

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Chris Grouchy:

I've heard incredible things about the series. It sounds like you also read some non-fiction too to help with learning. Is that correct?

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Andrea Limbardi:

I do read nonfiction as well. I do read more fiction. Right now, I have a young child, so I think I read more kids books than anything else, but I really read across almost all categories.

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Chris Grouchy:

That's fantastic. How do you decide what to read next? I think there's always this question of, "Do I go for something that's new and trendy and recently published, or do I seek out the timeless books that are constantly for weeks or years on end at the bestseller list?" Regardless of genres, are there any other heuristics that you follow for selecting what to read next?

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Andrea Limbardi:

I read next what someone recommends to me nine times out of 10. That could be almost anyone, and I'm not alone in that. We talk to our customers or do research. Most people read next what they've heard about from someone that they trust. That's what happens to me hopping all over the place, because I'm getting book recommendations from all sorts of different people.

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Chris Grouchy:

I can imagine that one of the shared values or interests for folks at Indigo is that they just love reading. I feel like that's definitely a requirement. If not a requirement, you're going to learn to love reading very quickly, and so everyone's got recommendations that I'm sure they're dying to share. Back to retail, how did you get your start in retail? What was your journey into retail, and what did that look like?

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Andrea Limbardi:

I was lucky enough to get my first job in retail at a Second Cup, so as a barista. I'll call that retail. I happened to be volunteering for a parent-teacher night at my high school, and the owner of the local Second Cup was there. I was 15 years old. He's like, "You have to come work for me." I fell in love with customers. I mean, at the end of the day, I love being around people. I'm incredibly curious to hear people's stories and what makes them tick.

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Coffee shops like bars and bookstores are places where people come to talk to you about their lives, and so I was able to, at a really young age, find a passion for me. I actually first went to school in hotel restaurant management thinking I'm going to go and open my own hotel. I wanted to be around, be able to host people, and so very lucky to find that passion. I do love retail. I love everything about it, the fast pace, as I said, all of the people involved, understanding the new trends, and being on top of that. It's been now almost a lifelong passion.

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Chris Grouchy:

That makes sense. In preparing for this interview, we saw that hospitality was an interest as well. I was thinking of asking a question about it, but it seems actually that retail and hospitality share a lot of common elements, but one big one in particular is that they're all about people. Would you agree with that?

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Andrea Limbardi:

I would totally agree with that. It really at the end of the day is all of the same thing, right? It's about giving a customer and your employees an experience that resonates with them, that is enriching to them, that makes them feel welcomed, that makes them want to come back.

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Chris Grouchy:

Makes a lot of sense. On that note then, what advice would you give to an aspiring retail leader? There's lots of changes going on right now, disruptions. It seems like nobody has a playbook or a silver bullet to navigating these rocky waters of this time that we're in. So on that note, with all the change happening, what advice would you give in aspiring retail leader?

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Andrea Limbardi:

Well, I think Covid or not, challenges are not... Now, there always are. It's always rocky times in retail, so my first piece of advice is you've got to love it. You've got to love the constant change, because it really is constant change. For someone like me, it's what draws me to retail in a big way. I love that we're constantly changing. So with that constant change, you have to be, I think, two things, incredibly curious, always open to learning new things, always open to understanding more. Then the second piece is always open to looking at yourself critically and what you're doing critically, driving towards continuous improvement because customers' needs are never static.

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They're always evolving, and they always want more. We always provide more, and then they just want more. You really need to be wired with some pretty tough skin to say there isn't a finish line. It's a constant journey towards getting better and better and better and in a way never being good enough. So, again, the advice is do you love that? Really ask yourself, do you love that? Because if you do, you'll have tons of success, and you'll find tons of satisfaction in the job. If you don't love that, it's not the career for you.

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Chris Grouchy:

I think that's a healthy perspective and one that needs to be shared across the organization, not only at the leadership team, but the people who are working with you on their own projects and initiatives. So, being a great leader could also mean instilling those values or those beliefs within your people. I've always felt that you in particular have a great eye for talent. I don't know if you would see yourself as someone who has that, but based on the folks that we work with on your team at Indigo, they are exceptional. They're incredibly talented.

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I just think that you've assembled this all star cast of characters who really drive to get things done regardless of what barriers are standing in the way. I have to ask, "Is there a go-to interview question that you use for evaluating talent, or any recruiting tactics that you use in order to get the best people to execute on your team?"

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Andrea Limbardi:

I think going back to what you're saying about leadership, first of all, if you're going to have great people on your team, you have to give them the space to be great. I believe really strongly that you hire people that you can give trust to, and you give them the space to do their work the best way that they can, and that you act as someone who can help challenge, push, question, support, act as a sounding board. I really believe we're all adults, and so I think in the past, there's been this parent-child relationship with leaders and their team members.

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Actually, we're all here at the table bringing huge amounts of value and in very different ways. Where I have my weaknesses, I'm sure to always find people who have those strengths on my team, and vice versa, so I encourage them and their team because... My background is prior to being in digital, I had a team of 2,000 people, so I have a lot of experience with people. One thing I know for sure is you don't turn your weaknesses into your strengths. If something is just not in your cup of tea, that's okay. Leave it alone. Find somebody else who's really good at that. Really value them.

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Then you bring your best self to the table, and then combine. We're a team. So, having adults at the table who all can understand each other's strengths, and that we can all work together is really important. So to your question on what interview question do I ask, or what does it look like, I just have conversations. Interviews are actually proven to be the absolute worst way to assess talent. They're proven to be that. I just have a conversation. I try to say to people, "Let's just have a coffee together, and have a conversation, and see where it goes."

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Of course, we talk about things of what they've accomplished, and what's important to them. But when it's a comfortable environment, people tell you everything you need to know, good and bad. So, you often see... It's rare that I'll hire somebody, and be surprised once they start if I've had enough of those conversations. Then I'm not shy to have as many as I need to in that interview process, because it's important for the candidate as well. They're making a decision equally as well.

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Especially in today's landscape where there are so many open roles, and candidates really have their choice, it's important they get an opportunity to ask all their questions as well and feel comfortable to do so. So, maybe to sum it up, start the relationship off as one where we're in this together from the moment we first say hello in an interview, and give people the space and support to do what they do best.

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"...Start the relationship off as one where we're in this together from the moment we first say hello in an interview, and give people the space and support to do what they do best."

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Chris Grouchy:

That is incredible advice. I also love the talk track of treating people like adults. I think that in a lot of workplaces, people aren't treated like adults. Oftentimes, what that looks like is they don't hear critical feedback. They don't receive critical feedback. They're not encouraged to share critical feedback with the people that they report to. Yes, that can be scary and jarring, especially the first few times you receive it or provide it. But once you do it, then you end up basically loving... You love the process of giving, receiving critical feedback.

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I wanted to follow up with a question around what giving space looks like. Andrea, you mentioned that it's important to not only treat people like adults, but also to give them a high degree of autonomy. Are there any best practices that you use to successfully give people autonomy without ensuring that they don't deliver on expectations, or you prevent bad things from happening despite a high degree of autonomy?

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Andrea Limbardi:

It's really something I think people talk about a lot, which is where's the fine line between giving people space and micromanaging, but then how do you stay on top of how things are going and where that's going? I don't have a great answer there, because ultimately, it backfires on me sometimes. I do give a lot of space. I love a lot of communication, so share with me where you're at. Let me help you. I really don't believe in... When someone makes a mistake, I want them to say, "I've made a mistake. How do we work through it together?"

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It's not about... Let's move on from it, so it's not about constantly coming back, "Do you remember that time you did this?" No, we don't need to talk about it. Let's move on. Are there times that that doesn't work? Yes. Are those people happy on my team? They're not. One of two things usually happens. They either self-select out, because they need an environment that's a little bit different, or they aren't successful, and so most people are... I mean, I think you spoke earlier about the fantastic team that you've been working with. They are fantastic. They're incredibly talented, and I'm very lucky to be working with them.

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People like that don't need or want a huge amount of hand holding, and so we stay connected in formal ways, project management updates, and things like that. It's not just free for all, and folks want structure, but I really do lean on bringing people on the team who will be driving that and keeping me in the loop. A good way to look at people development is we're all in charge of developing one person, and that's ourselves. If we're in charge of developing ourselves, and being really open with what we need as individuals, because who knows us better, and then have that person in your life, whether it's a direct leader or a peer or a direct leader on another team who can help you in your development, and many in some cases, that's the best way to get the best out of ourselves.

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For me personally, I have a lot of people I go to for mentorship, for advice, for counsel. Some report to me. Some work in other areas of the business. Some are senior to me. Some don't even work in my company. A good friend of mine, I use often as a sounding board, and so it's just taking away all of this structure of, "It needs to be hierarchal relationship. It needs to be the direct hierarchal relationship," and instead being, "Here's who I am. Here's the help I need, and let's be a team together and figure it out."

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Chris Grouchy:

That makes sense to me. I love the tactic of assembling your own personal and professional board of advisors. I think that connects with this theme of self-awareness, self-awareness as an individual, as a team. We can connect that idea to self-awareness as an organization. One point you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation is the importance of being critical towards yourself. "I can never be good enough. I need to force the act of critical thinking towards the organization."

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I want to use that thread for a second to talk about Thoughtful. Can you describe Thoughtful, and what led to its creation? Maybe we'll just use this as a case study for a moment.

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Andrea Limbardi:

Absolutely. So prior to starting Thoughtful, I was responsible for our stores in Eastern Canada. I had just finished my MBA, which I did as part of an executive program. I really did it in this lifelong pursuit of learning. I wasn't doing it for the next career goal, and really just had an absolutely incredible experience doing it, but what I did unlock is some parts of my brain thinking differently, and you get experiences from different aspects of your life that wire you a little bit differently, and get you to see things a little differently.

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So, we had this opportunity with our customers who kept saying to us how difficult gifting is, and how important it is to them to be a thoughtful gift giver. Those were their words, and that when they give a gift to somebody that they care about, they want that person to feel valued. They want that person to feel appreciated. They want that person to really understand how much they care about them. At the same time, this is where it gets a little more complex. Their brand is just as important as the gift giver.

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So even though, Chris, if you like something, and it was your favorite thing in the world, if I didn't like it, I couldn't gift it to you, and that's how people are. In gifting, there are almost two customers, and so it's one of these places where you not only have to have the right gift for the person getting it, the recipient, but also for the person giving it feeling really great about it. Then add to that, people are time strapped. They're stressed. They've got 1,000,001 things to do, and so they want to be all of these things, but they have no time to do it.

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So they really were saying to us, "Help us." So with Thoughtful, we started to really think about what is Thoughtful gift giving, and what does it mean?" Acts of service came up a lot, giving people something that they can experience that is not something that will be throw away, that's something that they're going to have memories that last a long time. Thoughtful was born from that. It was a very small team that we treat as a bit of an incubator at Indigo to bring to life the idea, and started really brainstorming on how could we bring this to life quickly to get some learnings from it?

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Chris Grouchy:

For organizations that are looking to incubate their own experiments, what advice would you give to them if they're going about this for the first time or they have an idea but they just don't really know where to get started? Are there any best practices that the team over at Indigo and Thoughtful came up with, or maybe a playbook of sorts that could be recycled, or elements of it could be recycled if they were to adopt their own experiments?

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Andrea Limbardi:

The first thing we did was understand what we were trying to be, and so we developed two things. Who are we for our customers, who were both the end customer, and because Thoughtful is a marketplace, our suppliers? So we, in early days, defined who our two customers were. Then for our internal teams, and I think this is really crucial, there are so many priorities in a large organization that don't get funding. So when something like an incubation project gets funding, why and how come and why not me?

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We really early on said, "What are our team tenants? How are we going to show up? How are we going to provide value to the organization and learnings to the organization, both to learn from them and continue to get the support of this great organization we have, but also to make sure that they feel on the journey?" It comes down to people always really. I'm talking about the two customer streams, the suppliers and the end customer and then the people on the Indigo side or on the team side. We did our best there.

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We have some failings that happen from people not feeling involved, and some of that that you learn as you go that despite best efforts, it's not always good enough, but it was really also important as the internal team of Thoughtful to be aligned to how we were going to work. So when we had some challenges which are normal, storming and building a business, we are able to go back to our team tenants and our mission, and say, "How does this align to the ways in which we are going to work together? Are we hearing each other out? Are we breaking down silos? Are we failing fast, which was one of our tenants?"

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It was really good to break the negative energy, remove the energy from being about a people conflict, and putting it back to, "Oh, we agreed to work this way, so let's make it about how we're working rather than the people being the problem," because it's rarely the people.

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Chris Grouchy:

Absolutely. As soon as we objectify the problem, oftentimes it becomes much more clear what the solution should be, and we can detach our emotions. Emotions are important. They tell us where the problem exists, but they don't necessarily tell us what the problem is. I really like how you've defined the first principles of incubating an idea first with the team, and then approach the implementation. Something you said there that's very interesting to me is something that I also think that both Indigo and Convictional champion, which is the supplier and the vendor being the first customer or a customer in retail, but arguably the first customer.

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Was this an idea that you learned through the process of incubating Thoughtful, or did you stumble upon this insight through another way perhaps?

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Andrea Limbardi:

It really was through Thoughtful. When we were imagining bringing to life Thoughtful, and knowing it was a pure marketplace, ultimately if the vendors, suppliers weren't happy, we would have nothing. So, it was really great foundation to start from, because it allowed us really to put ourselves in the shoes of a small business, and in particular, which is really what we were going after with Thoughtful, is giving an opportunity to these small and medium businesses to reach a larger audience. We actually brought someone on board who had run multiple small businesses to act as our internal, as she consulted for us, but really act as our internal voice on, "What does it mean to be a small business, and what are the things that we need, and what's important to them?"

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Then in our early days, we spoke to many of the businesses to say, "How are we doing? What do you need differently? What could that look like?" I knew from early days, if we weren't to do that, that we wouldn't have their time that we needed in order to bring forward to our customers the selection and assortment we wanted to. They're so busy. They've got so much going on these small and medium businesses in particular that for them to diversify their business is a big deal. We wanted to get it right for them and seamless for them and easy for them.

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That's why I'm excited to partner with Convictional because we didn't get it easy and seamless for them actually. Despite all our best efforts, that in and of itself is massive, massive work, and so we did a lot of hand holding, a ton of handholding, but that's not what they wanted. They just want it magically done and automated, and not to talk to us and have us do it for them.

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Chris Grouchy:

Right, or as we've talked about, your team is incredibly conscientious and talented. They're willing to jump in and hold their hand. That's not what they want. But in most cases, what ends up happening is the vendor does all the work manually, and there's nobody to call, and there's no automation in place. So, being able to jump to that end state of making it end-to-end, self-serve, and ideally can onboard in a matter of days, that is incredibly powerful to them, but also to the retail business itself. My next question is if you're able to achieve that, what's the end result for Indigo as a business?

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Andrea Limbardi:

For us, our customers come to us when life events are happening, whether it's their own personal life events or events happening in the world. I'll give an example, Joe Biden's inauguration. Amanda Gorman did the beautiful... read her poetry. Our site search exploded with searches for Amanda Gorman. That's an example of just the immediate zeitgeist that happens in the world, and customers come to us, but the same thing happens in other products that aren't just book, which might be in February, I think it was Megan Markle who talked about a waffle maker being given to her as a gift on the Oprah interview.

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TikTok went wild for waffle makers. We then went wild for searches on waffle makers. Having that ability to turn around and bring on inventory in a few days allows us to meet our customers' needs. So in the example of waffle makers, without sharing too many details, we had some already as part of our assortment, and then now since have many more, but what we need as a solution is the ability to answer those needs in almost real time, because a customer mood and sentiment changes quickly.

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I think a great example for most retailers during Covid times is all the investment people have done in their homes, renovations, decor, home offices. How quickly we're able to pivot and be there for our customers is crucial. They expect us to be there. They come to us first. They often come to us before they even go on Google, and so I want to make sure that we can remove friction from our customers' lives, and have everything they're looking for when they're looking for it within reason, of course. But for the most part, we should be able to answer their needs.

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Chris Grouchy:

The TikTok use case, my team has been hearing me talk about this one for weeks now because it's so true. If a product goes viral on TikTok, a retailer should be able, by the end of the next business day, get that product merchandised on their site, and get it in the hands of customers. That's the end state here, right? That's the velocity we're trying to enable. What you're saying makes a lot of sense to me. Of course, I'm bias, but I think that kind of velocity in retail can be a difference maker in a comparative advantage.

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Andrea Limbardi:

It's actually essential. I think in not too long, if not already, it's actually essential. TikTok's a real thing, so you can tell your team that TikTok is a very real thing. TikTok book gets featured. A TikTok journal gets featured. Something's going on, and it's instantaneous for us, literally instantaneous for us. We're selling out of the product within minutes, and bringing... We, in time, sometimes can't even bring enough in. That goes back to what we were talking about. Where do you get your recommendations from? Well, you get your recommendations from friends or people you trust.

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In our world today, TikTok's a method of people doing that. It's actually quite beautiful to watch, to see how people engage on TikTok, and how supportive that community can be, and so they trust each other.

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"TikTok's a real thing, so you can tell your team that TikTok is a very real thing...That goes back to what we were talking about. Where do you get your recommendations from? Well, you get your recommendations from friends or people you trust."

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Chris Grouchy:

It's also incredible at personalizing to the audience's niche interests, right? So if you have the underlying infrastructure for being able to source an onboard, typically smaller brands that you can't find anywhere else, you are setting yourself up to cater to what seem like niche interests, but in aggregate and absolute numbers are actually quite needle moving in terms of GMV for retail.

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Andrea Limbardi:

Absolutely. You're 100% bang on.

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Chris Grouchy:

Is there any other thoughts around this idea of the supplier being the first customer, specifically the importance of getting to the suppliers first before they are discovered by potentially peers in the market or mass marketplaces, which I understand is not the goal of Indigo? Indigo hopes to be a little more curated.

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Andrea Limbardi:

I don't know if it's about first, so I think what's important for vendors is that they're treated as customers. So if we think about it from a customer lens, an end-consumer lens, I have many places I can buy those waffle makers, many places. But if I don't have a good experience at one of them, I'm going to go somewhere else, or I'm going to, next time I have to shop, prioritize that other place that's treated me better, where I had the better experience. So for me, with suppliers and vendors, we have to treat them the best we possibly can, because they have a lot of choices. It's a two-way relationship.

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I think gone are the days where it was the big monolith coming in and saying, "I'm going to buy all of these units from you." That happens of course, but they have so much choice today that they deserve a great experience, and we deserve to be partners with them. I really truly believe that we could be second. We could be third. We could be fourth, but if we do our job right, they'll choose us. So when a waffle maker goes wild on TikTok, and let's call it they have a certain amount of assortment in stock, they're going to prioritize the sales with us versus somewhere else because we've treated them well.

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They're going to sell out regardless, right? That's going to happen. But who are they going to choose to sell out with? That should be us.

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Chris Grouchy:

Oh yeah. I think they want to reciprocate, because they've been treated well, and there's a lot of alignment between your customers and their customers. The other element here is that suppliers know other suppliers, and they talk. So being able to drive that word of mouth in order to increase the assortment, there's a little bit of virality there if you can really nail the supplier experience. Pivoting a little bit to the next question, I'm very curious about how you see the interplay between Indigo's digital strategy and the in-store strategy.

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You can take that however you like, but my own personal experience has been since I was a little kid, Indigo's just been this place of wonder for me. I think the e-commerce site does a good job of still instilling that in the customer. I think you would say that there's definitely work to do. You're never good enough. But how do you see these two elements that are seemingly disconnected working together to deliver the promise of indigo?

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Andrea Limbardi:

Our stores are magical places. You're not alone to have memories of growing up in our stores. We have people who've proposed in our stores. We've had weddings in our stores. Our stores are magical places. I'm not going to be hosting a wedding anytime soon on our website, so I think the first important thing is to understand the role our stores play. There is a unique experience that our stores bring in retail. I think, we can also make that better for our customers. In this time of everything digital and everything fast paced, how does it feel to sit in a chair, flip through a book, and drink a coffee? That's pretty special.

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How does it feel to be in the kids' department, and watch your children play while you get to sip a coffee, and have a moment of peace? That's also really special. So for our stores, I think we really need to double down on that feeling and that experience. It's not about digitizing our stores. It's about bringing people together, a sense of community. When I talk to our customers, they'll tell me how they like to meet their friends at Indigo. Meet me up at Indigo. Meet me at Indigo. I hear that over and over again, and so how do we be a place for gathering, and how do we be a place to bring people together?

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The other piece that we talked about earlier is, and that our customers tell us they love about our stores is the book recommendations, and here's where digital can come in. Digital should be an enabler to make things easier, not a replacement of things. Would I put digital screens everywhere in our stores, or would I put more chairs in our stores? I'd put more chairs in our stores, hands down, and make it a place people want to come and hang out. But when I need help for that best mystery book recommendation, I want to get you connected to the best book expert we have in mystery in the company, and digital should be able to do that.

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So I could be in Kelowna, BC talking to somebody in Halifax, Nova Scotia, if that happens to be who is the best expert in mystery. Our customers who are deep book lovers, and they know books better than us in some cases, but we have somebody who we can connect them with somewhere. I think that's true for actually every product. People come in so well informed. I was in our stores just last week, and customers are picking up a product in their hand. In this case, it was our baby department, so they had one of our baby plush actually in their hand, plush toys.

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On their phone, I saw that they had the plush toy looked up on our website, and they were reading the reviews and the product description. So, it's this merging and melding together where it makes sense for the customer to have the best possible experience they can get.

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Chris Grouchy:

I love that you're thinking about how this applies specifically the idea of personalization to non-book products as well. Are there any other plans or tactics that Indigo will be using in order to drive that similar level of personalization to the non-book SKUs, specifically in digital? Anything that you're open to sharing, I would love to hear it.

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Andrea Limbardi:

Absolutely. We already are today. So actually in our stores this past August, we brought in some desks that are quite large, dropship only, so online only SKUs, and introduced them to our customers, and that did really well. I think there's an opportunity for our customers to touch, feel, see, and not just our customers, human beings in general who want to have that experience. So, how do we then give them the option from a long tail perspective to be able to see all of it, get all of it? Then when I talk about expertise, that's true for everything.

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We have experts in toys. We have experts in home decor. We have experts in our paper products that some people are really quite obsessed with. When you're excited about something, you want to talk to somebody about it. That goes for any aspects of our lives, and that can happen. Decision support or product support can happen in many different ways. It can happen by talking to a live human. It can happen by reading reviews. It can happen by seeing different content, multimedia, et cetera. It's about in our stores to be able to provide...

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Actually, I think the best way I've heard it said is there's no such thing as channels anymore. It's not that store channel and the online channel, but the customer's channel. So if you're serving the customer, and you're thinking of them as a full human being who interacts seamlessly in all of these ways, the channels don't need to be channels any longer. I think this idea of online versus store is very antiquated. Instead, how do they blur and meld together at the same time?

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"I think there's an opportunity for our customers to touch, feel, see, and not just our customers, human beings in general who want to have that experience. So, how do we then give them the option from a long tail perspective to be able to see all of it, get all of it?"

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Chris Grouchy:

It makes sense. We go back to the question, "What does the customer want?" They want to touch and feel things in store. They want an experience that's memorable, but maybe they don't want to walk out carrying a 100-pound exercise bike and margarita machine. Maybe they actually just want to purchase it there, touch and feel the product because they've been convinced that this is what they want to buy, buy it, and then the vendor ships it to them the next day.

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Andrea Limbardi:

That's exactly it. Absolutely. I think that goes... That's important on birthday gifts and holiday gifts where you don't want the person you're with to see what you're buying. We're seeing a lot of that behavior as well.

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Chris Grouchy:

So true. I think the birthday holiday story, trying to dodge the partner while you're buying their gift, that is always a challenge and one that I will very soon be up against. In closing, I wanted to end with our rapid fire round. We'll ask a short question, and you give us your immediate thoughts in just one to two sentences, although feel free to drift off if you'd like. Are you ready to go?

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Andrea Limbardi:

I'm ready to go. Let's do it.

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Chris Grouchy:

Awesome. What is the most exciting opportunity in retail post Covid?

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Andrea Limbardi:

The most exciting opportunity in retail post Covid is the fact that everyone's now a digital expert. Your grandmother and your child are all digital experts. What Covid has brought us all is we've all done Teams meetings or Zooms. We've all learned to buy online. We've all learned to interact in new ways. I think digital is actually the great democratizer. I think it's an equal playing field, and so having everyone having access to information in the same way is powerful. For us as retailers, being able to communicate to our customers in so many different ways, and connect with them in the way that's right for them has been incredibly exciting.

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Chris Grouchy:

A brand you love and why.

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Andrea Limbardi:

A brand I love, well, one of the brands I love the most right now is Article furniture out of Vancouver. I think they're just doing all things right. Their design is fantastic. The quality is amazing. But more importantly than that, their customer experience from end to end, from when you get on their site to the last mile, which is typically so difficult with furniture companies or any large goods is completely seamless. They're really clearly listening to their customers, and they're really clearly prioritizing experience and quality above all else. I think that's really winning for them, and a great Canadian brand, which I love.

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Chris Grouchy:

That's awesome. Most important lesson in building a family.

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Andrea Limbardi:

The most important one and the hardest one to take is just turning it off, turning off the digital devices. Everyone always says this, right, but it can be a little bit of an addiction. So really, that face to face time... My son had an injury back in August, and he's fine now, but part of the prescription was a month without screens. It was actually an absolute gift to us as family. Not that he had screens much at all, but sitting down and reading books, and playing Lego, and savoring the moment cooking together, and just trying to come up with activities to fill the day constantly.

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He was also not allowed doing any physical activity, so it was... It's just that reminder that turning off the devices as much as digital plays that role to democratize, there's nothing better than that quality in-person time.

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Chris Grouchy:

Our final question is the kindest thing someone has ever done for you.

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Andrea Limbardi:

I have to give this to my husband, because we've been together for a very long time. He does all the things that I don't want to do before I know I need to do them, so changing the tires on my car, which he did today while I'm out of town for winter, taking care of contractors and things like that. I think the kindest gift, or at least the kindest thing people could do is involved in anticipating somebody else's needs, and getting a step ahead of them.

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Chris Grouchy:

Well, that sounds like a great place to wrap. Andrea, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us today. You are an incredible human. We love working with you in Indigo. Thank you so much. This has been, I think, an MBA of sorts for people who are aspiring to build teams, incubate ideas, and develop themselves in the wonderful world of retail. Thank you for sharing your insights, and really looking forward to continuing our partnership.

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Andrea Limbardi:

Thank you, Chris. For us, Convictional is like a match made in heaven, one we didn't think was even possible to find. So in finding you and the team at Convictional, it's been a dream come true to be able to bring to life and experience for our vendors, our suppliers, that no one else has even been close to match. We're excited by the future. We're just beginning.

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Chris Grouchy:

Well, thank you very much. Thanks again to Andrea for coming on the show. Thank you for listening to the Legends of Retail podcast. If you want to get notified about future episodes of the show, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the show. You can also stay updated by following Convictional on LinkedIn and Twitter. If you've been enjoying the show so far, would you mind rating and reviewing the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify? It really helps get the show in front of more listeners.

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Finally, if you want to share feedback on the show, or would like to recommend a guest for season two, DM me on Twitter at ChrisGrouchy, all one word, or you can email me at chris@convictional.com. Thanks again for listening.